i have my ranty-pants on...

[tiggz]

this may offend some of you, but hey! this is my journal and i'll rant if i want to. i'm also going to leave this public, which is rare for me.

i am so tired of hearing that the beta is no bronze and that the community is a shadow of its former self. the beta/bronze/community is what you make it. i'm tired of seeing people come onto the board and complain about the "substance" and long for the days when there actually was some. rather than bitch about there not being any substance how about contributing something other than a whine or snarky dig at what you perceive as a lower level of communication.

how do you(and this is a generic you) expect the community to continue traditions when 70% of the really old school posters have abandoned the community? whether it be because the PBPc owns and moderates the board, or it looks "freakishly like the original Bronze" or whatever other asinine reasons you have for abandoning. i don't care. you can't complain about it not continuing those traditions and not be there to have a hand in that. you also can't complain about the posters that do post forming their own traditions. you can't have it both ways. you have to put up or shut up.

when i do see old posters make a return i certainly can't say that the "substance level" is raised. sure it's fun to see old names posting, but really what do they bring to the board? it's mostly one-line posts and in-jokes. it feels like they crash the gates to a party that's been going on in their absence. it almost feels like they are spitting in the faces of the people who have kept that party going during the time they deign to grace us with their presence.

well ya know what? that place is kept alive because of people like me, Beldin, wolfguard, white wings, The Birthday Gnome, deadguy and OldManFan. we're the ones there day in and day out. we aren't "fair-weather" posters.

beta may not be "substance" to you, but that's because you are no longer in on the "in jokes" or because you don't recognize most of the people posting. well you know what? you took yourself out of that loop and you have noone to blame but yourself.

so instead of bitching and moaning about the glory days that were the bronze and i happen to think you're looking through rose-colored glasses if you're remembering a Utopian posting environment, how about doing something about bringing that tradition back to life? if not, shut the fuck up and leave us to form our own traditions.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_cinnamongirl_/]

*applause, applause, applause*

this moment brought to you by a Pretty In Pink flashback.

i hear what you're saying, and totally agree. a lot of us, myself included, have been bitching lately about how slow the Beta has been. but i figure, instead of just bitching about it, and dropping 'wow, it's slow in here!' posts and running, if i don't actually make an effort to post and start and maintain conversations, then i really don't have any right to bitch. (a topic we sorta touched on briefly last night.)

and, i really don't see anything imflammatory about this post, or any need to lock it. it's your opinion, and someone might disagree with it (i certainly don't!), but that doesn't make it any less valid.

*smoooch*

[kibarika.livejournal.com]

I feel kind of bad now for not being there, even though I'm not complaining about how terrible it is (I like it just fine), and I certainly don't ever remember there being a Perfect!Bronze. But I am out of the loop, and when I do drop in I get overwhelmed by the number of names I don't know, and you're right - nobody's responsible for that but me.

[paksenarrion2.livejournal.com]

I totally agree.

Granted, I have been very lurky and sporadic the past year but that is due more to having no time.

I do think the Beta is not the Bronze and not that that is a bad thing. I think it is an entity all it's own and deserves to be treted that way. It has it's own set of traditions and in jokes. But for the old timers to bemoan the fact that the Beta is not the Bronze, while dropping a couple of one liners and running is not right either.

I dunno, I wonder how much longer the community will stay together. I wonder if when Angel goes off the air, the Beta will just die a natural death.

If that happens, I say we go invade TWoP!!

[foreverdawn.livejournal.com]

I completely admit to being more lurky than posty--and unfortunately, it seems that I am more of a "bad weather" poster instead of a fair-weather one.

That is also why I defer to you on Beta poster knowledge, simply because you ARE there, and I'm only read the board every couple days.

The WB Bronze was my "home"--not the UTV Bronze because I came in on the end of that, and not the Beta Bronze because my heart's not there anymore. All of them were separate and unique places with their own delights and evils. (Unfortunately, some of the old evils seem to like to regurgitate onto the new board.)

I respect the Beta has it's own unique "soul."

[antagonist2.livejournal.com]

I know I've tried to hold on as long as I can. We can go through a laundry list of why it's degraded to the point it has but for me it comes down to the fact that Buffy is gone and Angel just doesn't motivate me enough to talk about. Combine that with that fact that there are really only a handful of people who even talk about the show anymore and the rest are just BSing to each other or ControlFing. That's fine but that's not what I'm interested in. Still I can't tear myself away, I just lurk now but I won't complain about it.

Everyone has there version of what the glory days of the Bronze were and it makes me laugh because very few were actually there for it or when it was IMO. I'd say it was the first three years and if you haven't been around for the duration I don't see how anyone could place one era over another. I've heard the "my Bronze" is dead crap from people for so long now it just rolls off my back. I won't argue with people about it. If someone came in at season 5 and thinks back then was the high point then for them it was.

I have to say you left valmichael and KAM off your list of people who keep the Bronze alive. KAM easily must have the endurance record and what's more if anyone post to him about a topic show related he responds. Give him the ironman award.

[buggo1056.livejournal.com]

wow that is all too true.

unfortunatly i have become lurk girl and not so much post girl. and not because i dont want to post its just... its hard to explain...

see the WB bronze was my home. i was there all the time, i made so many friends, and was so close to so many people. i was really myself there which at times im not even sure i know who myself is. but there it didnt matter. i was totally addicted, and while i was not the most well known poster, i had friends, good one, i had a family there. Then when that went away, it was so hard for me. i think i literally had a void in my life. i tried other board but no where had that bronzy feeling. Then someone informed me about the beta.... i went, i reposted, saw some old friends, missed some old friends, made some new friend, but i think i was afraid to get to attached to it again for fear it would leave me again. thus after a while i slowly stopped posting and became lurk girl.... and recently lurk girl has become non existant girl. i mean i have friends there, but in all honesty im not even sure they know i was gone, and i dont know why that upsets me as i was afraid to get to close, but.... ugh i dunno i am not even sure this made any sense at all. and it prolly made me sound totally crazy, as i was attached to a place, and to a bunch of people not one of which i have ever actually met....

however, at the same time, i know its my own issue and dont come in a clutter the board bitching about things....


anywho... good post.. point well made, and totally not offended at all...

[corrupteroffire.livejournal.com]

I realized that the Beta wasn't the Bronze when I first arrived there, and I have no intention of leaving. I actually prefer posting when it's dead rather then when its at it's busiest. It's nicer to post and be able to read the reply post before there are 15 more to scroll past. I love the Beta, it's my 'home' now.
~Fire

[syrdarya.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind my crashing your LJ. :)

Hear, hear!

I totally agree. Communities change and if you don't do something to contribute, you can't really complain! (that's a generic "you" *g*)

I haven't been able to spend much time at Beta for a few months, and I do miss scrolling and posting throughout the day, but I don't plan to stop going there altogether. I am always glad to go there and see the familiar names and names newer than mine getting into conversations, because it's my home.

Communities have a way of enduring, and I'm sure even during the glory days, whichever glory days one might refer to, there were slow periods. I don't think Beta will die anytime soon.

[illusio-5.livejournal.com]

Hello Tiggy!

Interesting entry! And one with which I agree wholeheartedly!

I don't think I was ever a die hard Bronzer, more of a dilettante, and I know that my appearances are somewhat rare these days...but I still lurk and read, and I have made some great friends there, all of which continue to be so!

You may remember about a year ago I got into a little rowette on the Bronze Beta, and in my subsequent rant, I did refer to this business of idealising the old Bronze, and that there seemed to be some special cachet attached to being an original member of the 'old' Bronze, and what a crock of shit I thought it! Surprisingly, not as many people came out of the woodwork to lambaste me as I thought they would (though some did according to Scourge, but I never saw them because I was off cooling my heels).

Well, I still think it a crock, and like you these kinds of posts, and the inevitable comparisons annoy me too!

I posted at the old Bronze occasionally. Not as Noetic, but as English Woman, another of my screen names. You wont remember me, and neither would any of the other old Bronze 'Alumni', but the fact remains, I did post there sometimes, and it was 'alright'...nothing more!

I think the Bronze Beta is fantastic! One of the best online communities around. If you want serious and considered discussion, then the Beta is the place to go...but, it's also fun! Yes, there are more arguments sometimes than I care for! But hey, I don't have to read!

I think that every regular member should be extremely proud of what they have created. A community that has considerable standing and respect within the Buffy and Angel community, and the Sci-Fi genre over all!

Long live the Bronze Beta...the best Buffy/Angel community there is or ever was!

Offended? Not really ...

[kittyajh.livejournal.com]

I suppose I could be one of those old-time Bronzers you refer to as being 'fair-weather' posters. While I have never complained about the Beta being what it is, nor have I complained that it is not the Bronze (which it isn't), I can say that it isn't like the Bronze in which I took an active posting-role. I remember the old Bronze fondly. It was back in the days when Buffy was exciting and new and generated a lot of topicy goodness. It was my first foray into online posting communities. I do not think it was perfect - far from it. I don't think I view it through rose-colored glasses either. I remember kirbyclause and BigBoy ... nothing rosey about either of them. However, I did enjoy debating with kirbyclause.

I agree with you that the Beta is it's own community and as such should grow and develop in it's own way. Meaning new 'in jokes' and new traditions, and that also means a new 'feel'. The Beta doesn't feel like the old Bronze, nor should it. Old-timers that come back should respect that fact that the Beta is NOT the old Bronze. But, that doesn't mean they can't miss the community that they once knew. I know that I for one do not feel a bond for the Beta that is as strong as the one I felt for the Bronze. However, that is not what keeps me from visiting on a regular basis. I happen to like the Beta. I happen to like a lot of the folks I've met that are regular Beta posters (yes this means you).

I am a lurker for the most part these days due to the amount of whuppage I deal with regularly. Being a one-chica IT department for a company of approx 100 users doesn't give me a lot of free time to post. I will check in from time to time, and on the days I can post, I admit that I will drop in with oneliners and injokes to the few old-timers left and to the few familiar new names I see. So obviously there is some draw that keeps me coming back. I know for me that once BtVS started losing my interest, so did posting. I wasn't excited about the show - and I didn't want to take my disgruntled attitude and put it on display. It's just a TV show. Posting my gripes about a show does nothing except piss off those that still enjoy it.

I agree that those that gripe about lack of substance don't have a right to gripe if they aren't willing to do something to improve upon the situation as they see it. However, I don't think it's fair to make a blanket judgement that old-timers don't post anymore because they aren't part of the new traditions or in-jokes. It's kind of like that last scene in St Elmo's Fire (where they are looking in through the window at the 'new' group sitting in the 'old' group's regular spot), there comes a time when a new group comes in and continues with and builds on old traditions. When that happens, the old-timers should be willing to graciously step out of the way. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Hope I have not been the one to offend now. ;o)

[sir-chris.livejournal.com]

Since you wrote this with a few people in mind I am hoping this wasnt wholly the result of the one thing I said, but Id be mad if I couldn't see that I am at least partly one of the people.

Im willing to admit I shouldnt get all preachy about the bronze. After all, the only reason I don't go any more is because I dont want to. I don't watch Buffy anymore and I don't know the new gang very much. Not because of bitching, not "its feel" (And personally, balls to what other people say, to me the bronze is still the bronze no matter what).

I made an observation about the bitching in Dawns journal, and by that I meant the arguements caused by a select few that everyone gets in an uproar over. Its not needed. Why? Cause I know you guys are intelligent enough to see through the aggressors. These people are just fishing for a negative reaction. Whoevers doing it, whatever is being said, they are just trying to make a fuss. People (And its hard not to) react to them and they get what they want. A full on arguement featuring a lot of people. Its sad because I have friends who go there who deserve better.

I perhaps worded that wrongly in my response to Dawn by not emphasizing the tormenting but my observation wasn't negative towards you or the other good people of the bronze I can assure you.

That said, since I no longer go there (And I won't go back again) I understand I shouldn't have a right to critisize and no one else should. Its a place that introduced me to many people and I am glad of it. Its time for me to move on from that but its up to the people who frequent it to control it, no one else.

I know this post was about a few people because I havent made a great deal of comments about it but I felt the need to respond on my part and perhaps apologise for suggesting that the Bronze is somehow always a fight. I wont comment on it again, and I hope other people take note of this post because it seems fair to me.

[foundserenity.livejournal.com]

Word.

I wouldn't dream of considering myself an Olde Tyme Bronzer--I was only at the WB Bronze for about a year since before it closed sorry if you get this twice--I felt compelled to delete since that one word kind of altered the meaning of that sentence. Honestly, a lot of the stuff that happened at the WB Bronze and the Beta has started to blend together for me.

I don't begrudge people missing their old community, but you're right--it's their own fault they're out of the loop.